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	<title>Comments for jg&#039;s Ramblings</title>
	<atom:link href="http://gettys.wordpress.com/comments/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Jim Gettys&#039; ramblings on random topics, and occasional rants.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 11 Mar 2013 14:50:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on A Milestone Reached: CoDel is in Linux! by gettys</title>
		<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/a-milestone-reached-codel-is-in-linux/#comment-6084</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gettys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Mar 2013 14:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gettys.wordpress.com/?p=915#comment-6084</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When FreeBSD developers (maybe you) care enough to code it up....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When FreeBSD developers (maybe you) care enough to code it up&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Milestone Reached: CoDel is in Linux! by Bob Pelerson</title>
		<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/a-milestone-reached-codel-is-in-linux/#comment-5965</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Pelerson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 00:11:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gettys.wordpress.com/?p=915#comment-5965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When is this going to be ported to FreeBSD?  Its such a shame that so much work went into the Linux version before the FreeBSD version.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When is this going to be ported to FreeBSD?  Its such a shame that so much work went into the Linux version before the FreeBSD version.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Diagnosing Bufferbloat by braempje</title>
		<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/diagnosing-bufferbloat/#comment-5623</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[braempje]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gettys.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5623</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good to know, thanks for the quick reply!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good to know, thanks for the quick reply!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Diagnosing Bufferbloat by gettys</title>
		<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/diagnosing-bufferbloat/#comment-5615</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gettys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:47:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gettys.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5615</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The netalyzr team (I think most likely Nick Weaver) produced those plots from their data.  My great thanks to them, as it expresses the problem better than I ever could.

Each dot is a single netalyzr test; it&#039;s a lot of samples!

Note that the top speed for the test is around 20Mbps; there are problems at higher bandwidths not plotted.  And the white area down and to the right is caused by the termination of the test at around 5 seconds of buffering; there are problems down there too!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The netalyzr team (I think most likely Nick Weaver) produced those plots from their data.  My great thanks to them, as it expresses the problem better than I ever could.</p>
<p>Each dot is a single netalyzr test; it&#8217;s a lot of samples!</p>
<p>Note that the top speed for the test is around 20Mbps; there are problems at higher bandwidths not plotted.  And the white area down and to the right is caused by the termination of the test at around 5 seconds of buffering; there are problems down there too!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Diagnosing Bufferbloat by braempje</title>
		<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com/2012/02/20/diagnosing-bufferbloat/#comment-5613</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[braempje]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 13:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gettys.wordpress.com/?p=730#comment-5613</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How did you produce the very nice Netalyzer Uplink buffer test figure? Is this somehow the aggregated result of multiple Netalyzer runs?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How did you produce the very nice Netalyzer Uplink buffer test figure? Is this somehow the aggregated result of multiple Netalyzer runs?</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Internet is Broken, and How to Fix It by gettys</title>
		<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/the-internet-is-screwed-up-and-how-to-fix-it/#comment-5296</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gettys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gettys.wordpress.com/?p=811#comment-5296</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are a bunch of issues related to TOE/TSO.

Anything that causes a single process to send a large number of line rate packets back to back onto the wire is just making burstiness in the Internet worse (and there are already phenomena that tend to coalesce packets into bursts as it is).  So such bursts cross the Internet, where they enter their customer&#039;s single, bloated, stupid broadband device.

Part of why we like fq_codel so much is that its natural behavior is to break up such bursts at any bottleneck, reducing the burst problem.

Needless to say, this is not good for latency, and may cause collateral damage of all sorts.

Note that the people are not watching latency (particularly from the customer&#039;s end).  That is as important/more important than bandwidth per CPU cycle: web sites are &quot;stickier&quot; the faster they are *to the user of that web site*.  Getting packets out of your data center with the least CPU cycles may not achieve that goal, but sometimes the opposite.

We&#039;ve been around the mulberry bush many times on offloading TCP itself since the 1980&#039;s.  But this means you get two maintenance headaches: both your OS, and the firmware in the NIC.  Not a good idea.

It is also a classic example of &quot;if a little is good, a lot must be better&quot;.  Any of these techniques may be helpful at scale 2 or 4 (they provide most of their benefit).  But then people seem to think &quot;it must be even better to turn the knob to 11&quot;...  It seldom is...  But then the knob gets turned anyway.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a bunch of issues related to TOE/TSO.</p>
<p>Anything that causes a single process to send a large number of line rate packets back to back onto the wire is just making burstiness in the Internet worse (and there are already phenomena that tend to coalesce packets into bursts as it is).  So such bursts cross the Internet, where they enter their customer&#8217;s single, bloated, stupid broadband device.</p>
<p>Part of why we like fq_codel so much is that its natural behavior is to break up such bursts at any bottleneck, reducing the burst problem.</p>
<p>Needless to say, this is not good for latency, and may cause collateral damage of all sorts.</p>
<p>Note that the people are not watching latency (particularly from the customer&#8217;s end).  That is as important/more important than bandwidth per CPU cycle: web sites are &#8220;stickier&#8221; the faster they are *to the user of that web site*.  Getting packets out of your data center with the least CPU cycles may not achieve that goal, but sometimes the opposite.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve been around the mulberry bush many times on offloading TCP itself since the 1980&#8242;s.  But this means you get two maintenance headaches: both your OS, and the firmware in the NIC.  Not a good idea.</p>
<p>It is also a classic example of &#8220;if a little is good, a lot must be better&#8221;.  Any of these techniques may be helpful at scale 2 or 4 (they provide most of their benefit).  But then people seem to think &#8220;it must be even better to turn the knob to 11&#8243;&#8230;  It seldom is&#8230;  But then the knob gets turned anyway.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Internet is Broken, and How to Fix It by Revenge of the TOE</title>
		<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com/2012/06/26/the-internet-is-screwed-up-and-how-to-fix-it/#comment-5295</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Revenge of the TOE]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 19:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gettys.wordpress.com/?p=811#comment-5295</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Ultimately, we resolved the issue by adding a policy map in the firewall for the web server with the sysadmin disabling TSO in the linux kernel, but I&#8217;m not even sure these were good choices. Especially because TOE/TSO is supposed to be a performance enhancing feature. Just seemed to be the most expeditious choice when a production service was intermittently unavailable with lots of unhappy users. Guess we were just collateral damage in another bufferbloat drive-by.  Maybe Jim Gettys is right and the internet really is broken. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ultimately, we resolved the issue by adding a policy map in the firewall for the web server with the sysadmin disabling TSO in the linux kernel, but I&#8217;m not even sure these were good choices. Especially because TOE/TSO is supposed to be a performance enhancing feature. Just seemed to be the most expeditious choice when a production service was intermittently unavailable with lots of unhappy users. Guess we were just collateral damage in another bufferbloat drive-by.  Maybe Jim Gettys is right and the internet really is broken. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on The First Bufferbloat Battle Won by gettys</title>
		<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/the-first-battle-won/#comment-5284</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gettys]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2012 18:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gettys.wordpress.com/?p=1039#comment-5284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is why the RMCAT working group in the IETF was just formed: to deal exactly with this problem for RTCWEB.

See https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/rmcat/charter/ for more information.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is why the RMCAT working group in the IETF was just formed: to deal exactly with this problem for RTCWEB.</p>
<p>See <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/rmcat/charter/" rel="nofollow">https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/rmcat/charter/</a> for more information.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on RED in a Different Light by TCP Sucks &#124; Bram Cohen</title>
		<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com/2010/12/17/red-in-a-different-light/#comment-5238</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCP Sucks &#124; Bram Cohen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gettys.wordpress.com/?p=391#comment-5238</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the intelligentsia have a plan, called RED to how to fix the internet, because uTP (using the LEDBAT congestion control [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the intelligentsia have a plan, called RED to how to fix the internet, because uTP (using the LEDBAT congestion control [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The First Bufferbloat Battle Won by John K</title>
		<link>http://gettys.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/the-first-battle-won/#comment-5125</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2012 18:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://gettys.wordpress.com/?p=1039#comment-5125</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your mentioning RTP brings up a question that I&#039;ve had for a while.  It seems to me someone using raw IP or UDP can &quot;cheat&quot; and skip all the congestion avoidance/network sharing features of protocols like TCP, and just use as many packets as they can, and attempt to make sure that if they are the target of a packet drop, they have a duplicate somewhere already in transit and they don&#039;t suffer from it.  Are there ways to counteract this antisocial network behavior, or to limit its success?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your mentioning RTP brings up a question that I&#8217;ve had for a while.  It seems to me someone using raw IP or UDP can &#8220;cheat&#8221; and skip all the congestion avoidance/network sharing features of protocols like TCP, and just use as many packets as they can, and attempt to make sure that if they are the target of a packet drop, they have a duplicate somewhere already in transit and they don&#8217;t suffer from it.  Are there ways to counteract this antisocial network behavior, or to limit its success?</p>
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